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  • #16
    Re: Only in America

    That is rather disturbing to say the least. I cannot see any valid reason at all for that sort of marketing to be allowed. That is the sort of packaging you put on something to attract kids, not to attract supposedly responsible adult firearm holders. Lets face it, if you are an adult with a legal firearm and you are attracted by that ammo, are you really responsible enough to be carrying that weapon in the first place?
    Your charts, your radar, your eyes and ears - if all 4 agree, you may proceed with caution.

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    • #17
      Re: Only in America

      I agree fully with Steve on this. I presume it depends on how you define "adult", not to mention "responsible".
      There should be absolutely no need for these products, nor for the legal sale of dum-dum bullets and other munition designed to make maximum damage on impact.
      Why would a hunter want to destroy the meat of the animals he kill, unless he hunts for the "pleasure" of killing living thing??

      A few question to Dane:
      - Why do you feel the need to carry a concealed weapon?? Do you live in such a dangerous area that that is "necessary"?? Does it make you feel safer??
      - If you carried your gun openly in a holster on your hip, do you need any special permit??? (Other than whatever "licence" required to buy a gun in the first place (if any))
      - What is the legal age limit for someone to buy a gun in your state??
      - What is the legal age limit for someone to buy alcohol in your state??
      - Other than not having a criminal record within the state, what criteria are there for buying a gun;
      That you are mentally sound?
      That you don't have a low IQ?
      - Before you can buy a gun, do you have to prove that you are literate and able to read and understand whatever safety instructions and rules for using a gun safely there may be??
      - Other than for concealed carry licence, are any shooting test and/or safe gun handling course compulsory, or even available??

      I am very glad I live in a country where I DON'T feel the need to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise, or even own one to feel safe.

      THAT should be the aim for any civilized society in my opinion, not to arm the civilian population against criminals with guns.

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      • #18
        Re: Only in America

        This is not something that happen "Only in America", but I would also like to take up again the glorification of violence in Movies, on TV and especially in Games.
        Normal people are able to separate this from reality, but I am of the opinion that several of the shootings that has hit world headlines lately is directly or indirectly caused by people who are unable to separate fiction from reality. This has also been mentioned in many learned articles in highly respected journals and magazines.

        The shooting outside Denver is a classical, in my opinion. The perpetrator acted out what he had seen in Batman movies and called himself the "Joker".

        ABB is another case. He spent several years playing a strategy game called "World of Warcraft", where he excelled, while he failed in nearly everything else.
        This was where he got his "military" training and learnt a lot of what he used to carry out the bombing and killing of innocent people.

        Two recent example. There are many more, both in America, in Japan and in Europe, but this should suffice to make my point.

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        • #19
          Re: Only in America

          Another side of Americana:http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=55618
          Power to the NIPPLES!!!!

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          • #20
            Re: Only in America

            Originally posted by ombugge View Post
            - Why do you feel the need to carry a concealed weapon?? Do you live in such a dangerous area that that is "necessary"?? Does it make you feel safer??
            That is a long and complex question so I'll start with your easier questions.

            Originally posted by ombugge View Post
            - If you carried your gun openly in a holster on your hip, do you need any special permit??? (Other than whatever "licence" required to buy a gun in the first place (if any))
            It is actually illegal to carry a loaded weapon in public. The charge is "going armed to the terror of the public".

            Originally posted by ombugge View Post
            What is the legal age limit for someone to buy a gun in your state??
            In most (I think all) states you must be 18 years old to purchase a long gun (rifle or shotgun) that does not have a pistol grip. You must be 21 to purchase a long gun with a pistol grip or a handgun.

            Originally posted by ombugge View Post
            What is the legal age limit for someone to buy alcohol in your state??
            You must be 21 to purchase alcohol.

            Originally posted by ombugge View Post
            Other than not having a criminal record within the state, what criteria are there for buying a gun;
            Buying a gun is very simple. You must be old enough. Have no criminal record. Sign a piece of paper that you are not addicted to illegal drugs... bla... bla... bla...

            Originally posted by ombugge View Post
            ...That you don't have a low IQ?
            I do not know of anything that has an IQ requirement. I do not know of any country that has an IQ requirement to be a politician or become president and I know of no job anywere with an IQ minimum, not an astronaut, airline pilot, policeman or ships captain.

            Originally posted by ombugge View Post
            Before you can buy a gun, do you have to prove that you are literate and able to read and understand whatever safety instructions and rules for using a gun safely there may be??
            By reading the properly answering the questions on the form you do imply literacy and understanding but literacy is not a requirement for gun ownership. I also do not believe it is required for getting a drivers license.

            Originally posted by ombugge View Post
            Other than for concealed carry licence, are any shooting test and/or safe gun handling course compulsory, or even available??
            This is a very good question. The answer is no. There are training requirements for concealed carry but none for a guns purchase. Training is available but at your own expense.

            Originally posted by ombugge View Post
            I am very glad I live in a country where I DON'T feel the need to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise, or even own one to feel safe.
            THAT should be the aim for any civilized society in my opinion, not to arm the civilian population against criminals with guns.
            The "purpose" for society is a very complex question that has been argued for thousands of years. But I do agree that it would be nice to be free from guns, violence, poverty, hunger and disease but ours is not a perfect world. I think Norway holds the record for lone gunman massacre. Pandora's box was opened long ago and sick, evil or just plain stupid people inhabit every corner of this planet. I am not saying guns are the answer but a policy of "guns not permitted" did not prevent the killing of so many Norwegians any more than a policy or statement that "war is illegal" will stop fighting around the world.

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            • #21
              Re: Only in America

              In post # 5 I did mention the fact that strict gun laws doesn't guarantee no illegal guns:
              What happened in Norway may "prove" that strict gun laws doesn't stop a determined and resourceful person from getting hold of guns and ammunition, but it makes it a lot more difficult for those less resourceful to do so.
              As for Norwegian Gun Laws, they are strict compared to USA but not to the extent of banning private ownership of guns. There is a lot of hunters in Norway who keeps rifles and shotguns with ammunition at home, but before they can buy one they have to pass a test (Jeger proven) to proof that they know how to shoot, how to see the difference between a deer and a John Deer tractor, safety rules and safe keeping of their guns. I'm not sure if low IQ or mental soundness is part of the test, but somebody just released from a mental hospital, or with known IQ below 70, would probably be picked up in the system.
              Until fairly recently those in the Home Guard kept their weapons and ammunition at home, including fully automatic MG6.
              Now I believe they have to pick them up at a depot? (or at least the bolt??)

              For a person like ABB it is near impossible to stop them from getting weapons, regardless of how strict gun laws you have.
              He has now been sentence as a Terrorist, which is what he wanted.
              I have posted on this in another thread a few days ago.

              As to Dane' statement:
              I do not know of any country that has an IQ requirement to be a politician or become president.
              Yes there are. I live in one; Singapore. They may not have to go through a formal IQ Test to be nominated but, especially for Presidential candidates, they have to have held high positions in the private or public sector to be nominated. Sadly Singapore is an exception in this respect, as in many other.

              For "astronaut, airline pilot or ships captain", the fact that they have passed exams and have years of experience and training to get to their position should be proof enough that they have an IQ above 90, at least.
              Last edited by ombugge; August 28th, 2012, 06:25.

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              • #22
                Re: Only in America

                I admit I am unusual as far as guns. I have grown up with them so I think of them much like a car. A machine that can be safely operated or kill people if used improperly. I know you and I will never agree about many things but even I am surprised at the amount of guns on the loose here in the USA. I think it is a situation that got out of control long ago. Now we have millions of guns out in the public without record or much control so it really changes the idea of "control". Now it seems we are settling into a domestic Cold War. The guns are out there and there is not much that can be done about it so the legal citizens arm themselves.

                I do not think much in the news or statistics regarding guns can be trusted. Violent crime (murder, rape...) has declined at the same time as concealed carry has spread across the nation. What is not known is if the gun carrying public or improved law enforcement is to credit. I assume like most things in life it is not a simple answer and they both have contributed.

                Another interesting point to come to the surface lately is the number of innocents hit during shoot outs which really came out after the recent shootings in New York. Apparently the number of innocents shot by police officers is much, much higher than from legally armed citizens. I think this simple statistic overlooks the fact that the police are out in the public while most armed citizens are shooting in defense of their homes or businesses where there are far fewer innocents around.

                How do I feel about it all? I am honestly sick and tired of seeing flags at half staff. We have so many shootings that flags seem to be at half staff more often that at full mast. It makes me think something must change or we should just shorten our flag poles. I still vividly remember when Norma was killed in the parking lot at school and I had the pain of the trial and then again as HBO did a special Why Did Johnny Kill? Now that I'm older it is unusual if one of my tenants or their children are not killed. I must admit though that things are getting better. It's been almost two years since I've had in depth discussions & planning with the magistrates and Sheriffs Department and slept with a black rifle because the gang member son of one of my tenants may be out for revenge because his momma was evicted.

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                • #23
                  Re: Only in America

                  Well Dane, I think you are right that we will NEVER agree on the "need" for guns among the ordinary population, but I also think we can agree on a lot of other things.

                  As for the need to sleep with a black rifle because you were afraid that a gang member son could want to take revenge, I have one comment, or rather a question;
                  If it wasn't because you knew that he could easily go out and buy a high powered rifle with a telescopic sight and a packet of dum-dum munition, would you still fell the same need for protection?

                  Yes, I agree, he could still hurt you with a knife, or even a Baseball bat, but then he would have to be brave enough to face you, not hiding in the bushes an shoot you as you stepped out of your house, or drove to work.

                  Of cause, if the "culture of violence" was not prevalent, the likelihood of him physically attacking you would have been less.
                  Spreading rumors on Facebook or eqv. may be his weapon of choice.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Only in America

                    Sorry, I've been off a while. I had a friend go missing while flying out to the air races in Reno. The wreckage has been found so it's time to move on.

                    ---

                    First, stop calling them "dum-dum" bullets. Nobody will know what you are talking about. They are called hollow points. In reality almost every bullet you will find on the street in the US is a hollow point and of more advanced design and construction than the original dum-dum's making them more reliable and effective at killing. Some of the gang people use full metal jacket bullets but mainly because they are cheap.

                    Buying a rifle or handgun is extremely easy in the USA. There is a pretty good control system in place to regulate them when purchasing from a dealer or someone who's business is guns. That's where the control ends. It is legal to sell a rifle or handgun to someone as long as you do not know that they are a felon. So, most guns soon disappear from the radar and we have millions upon millions of guns that are sold/transferred without record. Even more shocking is that there is no system or way to find out if a gun you want to purchase has been stolen. There is no central database of stolen guns available to the public. We are allowed guns but can't be trusted to find out if they are stolen???

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                    • #25
                      Re: Only in America

                      I'm laughing so hard of this first video;

                      http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/10/25/n...2012/24045024/
                      With best regards from Jan-Olav Storli

                      Administrator and Owner of CaptainsVoyage.
                      Main page: http://www.captainsvoyage.com
                      Old forum: http://captainsvoyage.7.forumer.com/
                      Join us: Save the "Kong Olav" on facebook

                      Surround yourself with positive, ethical people who are committed to excellence.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Only in America

                        Only Colbert could pull that off!

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                        • #27
                          Re: Only in America

                          Originally posted by pilotdane View Post
                          Buying a rifle or handgun is extremely easy in the USA. There is a pretty good control system in place to regulate them when purchasing from a dealer or someone who's business is guns. That's where the control ends. It is legal to sell a rifle or handgun to someone as long as you do not know that they are a felon. So, most guns soon disappear from the radar and we have millions upon millions of guns that are sold/transferred without record. Even more shocking is that there is no system or way to find out if a gun you want to purchase has been stolen. There is no central database of stolen guns available to the public. We are allowed guns but can't be trusted to find out if they are stolen???
                          I know that we will never agree on the merit of Gun Control, but maybe the killing of 20 innocent children will change the mind of politicians at least.

                          It is a fact that more American people gets killed by gunshots every year than the number of Americans killed in wars and terrorist attacks since the Vietnam War.

                          I also know that it is not easy to remove the amendment that allows Americans to own and carry guns without a broad political agreement, but maybe, just maybe, these 20 kids didn't die in for nothing.

                          Even if a gun control law is enforced tomorrow it will take years, if at all possible, to actually get the illegal guns off the street.
                          It may be easier and more efficient to put tight control on the supply of ammunition. A gun with no bullets may be used to threaten people, but not to kill.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Only in America

                            I am very saddened by every killing anywhere in the world and unfortunately know some of the pain the families and friends feel. I lost a friend long ago. She died a horrible death at school while my taxes pay to keep the A-hole alive in prison. 25 years later I still can not think about it without crying.

                            Yes, it is an all too common story here. Another shooting. After each one I think maybe we have reached a tipping point and things will change. Hopefully this will be the one and some good will come of it.

                            There is a quick reaction to reinstate the assault weapons ban. I think it makes the politicians look good and little else. There was no decline in gun or "assault weapon" violence during or after the ban so it is just politicians strutting their feathers saying they are doing something. In reality the assault weapons ban gave rise to a whole new class of powerful and very concealable weapons in the USA.

                            Prior to the ban weapons makers focused on high capacity guns. Pistols carried 16, 18 or even 20 rounds. The pistols were big and difficult to conceal. Rifles just had longer magazines. Once that was banned and a magazine could only hold 10 cartridges they focused their attention on making smaller and more powerful hand guns that held 10 rounds or less. Now we have a whole new category of guns that fit in the palm of your hand and easily slip into your pants pocket.

                            I know it is easy to focus on the machine, the gun. I feel the root problem is more human. Our society and businesses do ANYTHING to make a dollar. Video games shooting enemies, zombies and monsters are an enormous industry. Then it spilled over into the real gun industry and now we have zombie bullets and targets. further blurring the line. I think we are raising a whole group of people that don't really understand what shooting someone means. They do it in games day after day, year after year and nothing bad really happens. Then they get older and get "zombie" bullets and zombie targets. Now they have real guns with real bullets and no clue of what really happens when you pull the trigger. F'ing pathetic.

                            I consider two approaches to alcohol control. I know Prohibition and the modern push against drinking and driving are very far apart but one addressed the object and the other addresses the people and society. Many people have been killed by drinking and driving. Great strides have been made by addressing the problem. Laws prohibiting drinking and driving and strict enforcement have done a lot but 20 years on we are seeing the real change in society that it is now "less cool" to drink and drive. Clubs and events have special prices and benefits for those that do not drink. Alcohol laws in the USA have actually been relaxed making it more available and drinking and driving is declining. Prohibition in the US outright banned alcohol production and sales. It did nothing to stop alcohol consumption and gave rise to organized crime that still exists in the modern illegal drug industry.

                            I think we have too many examples of banning or controlling the "object" that have failed when it is the humans causing the problem. Dealing with the object is easy. Just ban it, make it illegal, tax it or restrict it. The problem is that that approach just does not work. We need the moral strength as a nation and planet to deal with the real human problem.

                            All of that said. It is wayyyyyy too easy in the USA for anyone to get a gun. There are good laws in place for responsible people like me who legally obtain and own guns but there are massive holes in the system. I am in the hole in the center of a doughnut, legally and responsibly doing my thing but there is a whole doughnut all around that is mostly unregulated and has no laws. I think we need to make it more difficult to obtain a gun and give society a chance to catch up and deal with the core problem.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Only in America

                              Looks like we are in agreement on more things than I thought.

                              The constant bombardment of violent games, violent films and shows glorifying violence as entertainment is affecting the "weak" into thinking that violence in real life is also just a game.

                              Greed and lack of control with what both the weapons manufacturers and the game industry is producing is very much contributing to the "culture of violence" that we see spreading around the world.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Only in America

                                Originally posted by pilotdane View Post
                                I know it is easy to focus on the machine, the gun. I feel the root problem is more human. Our society and businesses do ANYTHING to make a dollar. Video games shooting enemies, zombies and monsters are an enormous industry. Then it spilled over into the real gun industry and now we have zombie bullets and targets. further blurring the line. I think we are raising a whole group of people that don't really understand what shooting someone means. They do it in games day after day, year after year and nothing bad really happens. Then they get older and get "zombie" bullets and zombie targets. Now they have real guns with real bullets and no clue of what really happens when you pull the trigger. F'ing pathetic.
                                For me it is a very sensitive topic to discuss. Since English is a foreign language to me it is often difficult to express my opinion in the right words. But what you mention here are 100% my thoughts, too. We have also from time to time such tragedies in German schools and Norway had this Breivik - disaster. So it is not all about a weapon ban. It is combined to another problem, and you are describing it perfectly.
                                Lofoten '07 ...... Nordnorge '11

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