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    Scottish Independence???

    Although CVF is not a political forum I take the liberty to start a thread about the upcoming referendum about Scottish Independence.
    The likelihood of a YES vote is reportedly low, but it is surprising that Whitehall does not to appear to even consider the possibility and have reportedly not made any contingencies.
    BBC World has run a number of Documentaries on the subject, but there is a lot of questions that I have not been able to find and answer to.
    Maybe some of our British members are able to enlighten me, and others??

    First of all, if Scotland is no longer part of UK there is no longer any United Kingdoms, as the other parts of today's UK was not Kingdoms and has been incorporated into the UK by other means.
    What will then be the name of what remain of the UK? What about terms like; British, Brits and Great Britain, will those still apply to what -and who- is left in the "former UK"???
    Will the Scots still be able to call themselves Brits or British, if they so wish??

    At the moment Scotland has it's own Parliament and Government to handle Scottish affairs. Wales, Norther Ireland, Isle of Man and even the Channel Island has their Assemblies, but England has none. In the Westminster Parliament all MPs, whether English or not, can vote on on things that is strictly English, but only Scots can sit in the Scottish Parliament.
    I understand how this came about historically, but it is manifestly not suitable for today's reality, even if Scotland stays in the UK. Is there any concrete plans how to correct this?

    There has been a great deal of discussion of whether Scotland will be able to retain and use the Pound Sterling in some sort of economical union with the other parts of UK, but with Bank of England setting the interest rates, like today. The other options being; joining the Euro, or establishing a new Scottish Currency altogether.
    Scotland already have the Scottish Pound, but it is not an independent currency, just a "branch" of the British Pound. It is issued by the Royal Bank of Scotland, which is now owned by the British taxpayers anyway. The question is; can an independent Scotland just declare the Scottish Pound an independent currency, pegged to Pound Sterling??
    They intend to retain the Queen as Head of State, I believe, so there should be no need to print new notes, initially.

    Then it is a question of an independent Scotland and it's standing in the world. Membership in UN, World Bank and IMF should be quite straight forward, but will they have to apply to become members of the European Union, if they so wish?? If so, will they be given special treatment, or will they have to go through the same scrutiny and process as say, Turkey??
    What will happen if the rest of UK elect to leave the EU while Scotland elect to stay within the union??
    Will there be tariffs on goods and boarder control for people at all boarder crossings between England and Scotland?

    Scotland will have to establish their own Embassies and Consulates around the world. They will have to have Scottish Passport, Citizenship and Immigration laws.
    Who will qualify as Scottish Citizens?? Will all holders of British citizenship that reside within the Scotland at a certain date be regarded as Scots, or will there be any requirement of birth place, length of residency, or whatever??

    "It is Scotland's Oil" (and Gas) but only what is within Scottish EEC. There will have to be negotiations between Scotland and England about where that line will be drawn in the North Sea, but will the line between Norway and Scotland and between Ireland (North and South) and Scotland have to be renegotiated??
    This does not only concern Oil & Gas, but also Fisheries and mineral rights on the seabed, wind farms etc.
    Does Rock All belong to Scotland, or what remains of UK?? That will decide where the demarcation line in the Atlantic will be drawn.

    Then one provocative question; If the people in Shetland and the Orkney should vote NO, but the overall vote is YES, could it be that they would rather join into some sort of union with the Viking forbears in Norway?? Now THAT would REALLY make things difficult.

    That is just a few of the questions that lacks answer, but it will do as an opener.
    Last edited by ombugge; September 1st, 2014, 17:43.

    #2
    If the Scots do vote Yes in the referendum then the untangling is going to be quite a big job.

    First of all, if Scotland is no longer part of UK there is no longer any United Kingdoms, as the other parts of today's UK was not Kingdoms and has been incorporated into the UK by other means.
    Firstly: the correct name is United Kingdom (singular).
    Secondly: "the other parts of today's UK was not Kingdoms". Not so.
    One way or another, the English government had a hand in ruling Wales for many centuries until it was absorbed - sorry that I can't think of a better word - somewhere in the 16th century and became part of England, acquiring the term Principality somewhere along the way.
    Scotland was already a kingdom under James VI and it was he who, through a complicated series of family relationships, inherited the throne of England when Queen Elizabeth I died. He subsequently had the label James VI of Scotland and James 1 of England. The two countries remained separate kingdoms, however, until the formal union in 1701. I think it was then that it became known as Great Britain.
    As to Ireland, I don't know. All I vaguely remember from my history lessons is that our Henry VIII styled himself as King of Ireland, subsequent English governments were more or less in control and it joined with GB a couple of centuries ago until in 1922 the greater part - officially called Eire - split off. So we are left with Great Britain = England, Scotland and Wales, and the UK = Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If Scotland opts out we would still have England (with Wales) and Northern Ireland and those people would still presumably continue to call themselves British, living in the UK even if that were somewhat depleted.
    Mind you, Ombugge, I stand to be corrected on any of that!

    At the moment Scotland has it's own Parliament and Government to handle Scottish affairs. Wales, Norther Ireland, Isle of Man and even the Channel Island has their Assemblies, but England has none. In the Westminster Parliament all MPs, whether English or not, can vote on on things that is strictly English, but only Scots can sit in the Scottish Parliament.
    I understand how this came about historically, but it is manifestly not suitable for today's reality, even if Scotland stays in the UK. Is there any concrete plans how to correct this?
    Perhaps the British (English?) government is playing the ostrich, or beavering away in the background making all sorts of plans, but without letting them be known for that would be to admit that yes, perhaps the Scots will dare to leave them. Who knows?

    I really had not heard that an independent Scotland would want to retain our Queen as their Head of State. That does surprise me. Independance??

    As to citizenship, I wonder whether "ex-pats" who have lived and worked in England for most of their lives will have a vote? Or will residency for a certain period be a requirement? Likewise, non Scots-born people resident in Scotland?
    Ivy

    "To thine own self be true.......
    Thou canst not then be false to any man."

    Comment


    • ombugge
      ombugge commented
      Editing a comment
      I deliberately used the term United Kingdoms to indicate the it was two separate Kingdoms that entered into a Union to formed today's UK in 1707.
      Wales and Ireland, like England, had "numerous" kingdoms" at one time. Around the turn of the last century, Norman and Viking "Kings" ruled in Cork, Isle of Man and in York and many other places on the island of Britain. But they got their status of unified Kingdoms under English Kings (or Queens) before the Union. At the time the UK was formed they did not have indigenous Kings, as they were effectively ruled by English fifes, many of them absentees.

      As to the English "expats" in Scotland and Scots living in England or other places in the world and their rights to vote in the referendums, I have seen or heard nothing concrete. Since they are all citizen of an entity called "UK and Northern Ireland" today, how do you separate who are Scots (with voting right) and who are not?? (I mean legally, not when they open their mouth) Interesting.

      As to the Queen as Head of State, I have not heard anything else. (Are we heading for a President Alex Salmond??)
      She is also Head of State in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and even Papua New Guinea, among other former British Colonies.

      By the way, here is an explanation of the origin and present usage of the words Britain and Great Britain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_(placename)

    #3
    Since they are all citizen of an entity called "UK and Northern Ireland" today,
    Careful! Surely you mean either a) an entity called UK or b) an entity called Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
    Ivy

    "To thine own self be true.......
    Thou canst not then be false to any man."

    Comment


      #4
      You can vote in the referendum if you are registered to vote in Scotland, are 16 or over on the date of the referendum, and are
      a British or Irish citizen living in Scotland
      Or
      a European citizen living in Scotland,
      Or
      a “qualifying” Commonwealth citizen living in Scotland (i.e. those with permission to enter or remain in the UK)

      So although I am English I am on the Electoral Register here and can vote, those from elsewhere in the EU who are living here and on the Electoral Register can vote, but a person born in Scotland but living and on an Electoral Register in England cannot vote in the referendum.

      In the event of Scotland becoming independent, the "Yes" campaigners current views on who would be eligible for Scottish citizenship are given here: http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/w...nce-and-future

      The "Yes" campaigners also say "the Scottish Government’s proposal is that “the Queen will remain Head of State in Scotland, in the same way as she is currently Head of State in independent nations such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand. This would be the position for as long as the people of Scotland wished our country to remain a monarchy".
      However I believe that the SNP (Scottish National Party) may have Republican leanings, but the SNP politicians within the "Yes" camp are playing this down just now.

      Comment


        #5
        Here is a light hearted look at the the pros and cons of Scottish Independence (From 2013 mind you)
        The Pros: http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/why-i...n-for-scotland

        The Cons: http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/why-i...l-for-scotland

        The year is obviously wrong and the story exaggerated: http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Uni...m_divided_2008

        But could the separation of Scotland lead to further breakup of the UK?? Possibly also present nation states in Europe and beyond???
        Last edited by ombugge; September 2nd, 2014, 10:51.

        Comment


          #6
          The cons. argument raises very relevant points on the economic and EU fronts. It is what we are all asking - those who are thinking about it at all, that is.
          Ivy

          "To thine own self be true.......
          Thou canst not then be false to any man."

          Comment


            #7
            Looking at the prospect of a Scottish Passport separate from the British Passport I found that there are already several proposals:




            There are also suggestions to an English Passport:


            Passport covers for Scottish passport holders are already on sale:


            As is covers for the Welsh:


            Already issued is a special Tartan Passport:

            Not for people but for heirloom Tartans.

            There are a lot of different British Passports in use today and even more from the Colonial days, but that will go in a different thread.

            Comment


              #8
              Originally posted by wherrygirl View Post
              Careful! Surely you mean either a) an entity called UK or b) an entity called Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
              In fact the entity is called; United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. At least that is what it says on British Passports:


              How is it possible to make things so complicated? History yes, but other places have history too, some even longer than Britain.
              ​Ethnic differences are relatively small and insignificant in modern times.

              Comment


                #9
                The new Scottish currency notes???:

                Comment


                  #10
                  I have no opinion on this affair (I only wish good luck to Scots and English when they’ll manage to share out the loot).
                  But it is paradoxal and historically interesting to notice that the Humanity tries to built big political entities and, in the same time, to preserve specific being part.
                  The Elite vs. The People?
                  Anyway an exciting subject of research for sociologists.

                  Comment


                    #11
                    Originally posted by ombugge View Post
                    In fact the entity is called; United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. At least that is what it says on British Passports:
                    The United Kingdom = England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
                    Great Britain = England, Scotland and Wales.
                    So my passport confirms that I belong to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is: the two areas Gt. Britain and N.I. combined to make up the UK.

                    In your comment to #2 you said
                    Since they are all citizen of an entity called "UK and Northern Ireland"
                    i.e. you are saying: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, [which together make up the UK] and Northern Ireland.
                    The entity is either the UK, (4 countries) or it is Great Britain and Northern Ireland. (3 countries + one).
                    Ivy

                    "To thine own self be true.......
                    Thou canst not then be false to any man."

                    Comment


                      #12
                      One more question; If Scotland leave the Union, what will happen with the Union Jack?
                      I assume it will have to change too as it is made up of the two flags of England and Scotland, with addition of some parts from an Irish flag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack.

                      For Scotland and England it is simple, they just revert to the the original flags, which is already in wider use already. Not so simple for Northern Irland. Yes there is an Official NI flag and there is the St. Patrick's Cross, but they are not very widely used, or popular.

                      What about Australia, NZ and the many other former and present Colonies that retained the Union Jack as part of their own flag at independence, or when obtaining self-government???
                      Will they have to come up with new flags to better reflect their own inheritance, racial and geographical reality?? About time for many.

                      Comment


                        #13
                        it seems (well on tv text) that 51% is for a independence Scotland
                        best regards Thijs

                        Comment


                          #14
                          Originally posted by ombugge View Post
                          One more question; If Scotland leave the Union, what will happen with the Union Jack?
                          I assume it will have to change too as it is made up of the two flags of England and Scotland, with addition of some parts from an Irish flag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack.
                          Again, Ombugge, precise definition is needed here. It is not "some parts" but the actual saltire (diagonal cross) of St. Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland. On its own it is a red diagonal cross on a white background.
                          I learnt an interesting fact from a BBC programme recently, and that was that in heraldry two colours must not be directly placed one upon the other. In other words, when depicted, the border of the top colour must be separated from that underneath by a white or gold line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_tincture So the red St. George's cross has a white outline to separate it from the blue background of the Scottish flag. The St. Patrick's cross then sits neatly upon the white saltire of St. Andrew. It must, however, be correctly superimposed - I presume you know the correct way in which to fly the Union Jack.
                          Will they have to come up with new flags to better reflect their own inheritance, racial and geographical reality?? About time for many.
                          A new Union Jack would presumably be just the two red crosses of St. George and St. Patrick on a white background. (retaining the white outline separation where they touch in the centre, of course!) Or Northern Ireland may well decide to come up with something quite different to distinguish it from Eire.
                          But see http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-...ge-union-flag/
                          If this is the case, then a small fortune will be denied the flag makers!

                          By the way, in #8 you said:
                          Ethnic differences are relatively small and insignificant in modern times.
                          Ethnic differences, particularly in the case of the Scots, are in no way insignificent! You will know that they, the Welsh, the Cornish and the Irish are a Celtic people. In recent decades much work has been done ro revive the old language spoken in each area and I believe that, at least, the teaching of Welsh is obligatory in Welsh schools. No doubt Gailsail would confirm that Gaelic is alive and well in Scotland and the Cornish language has now been revived although it had all but died out. Cornwall has a close kinship with the Bretons of northern France.
                          I am all for this, I deplore the muddying of the waters by old languages and customs falling into disuse, so that we all become the same sort of people doing the same sorts of things. My motto is "Vive la difference".
                          Ivy

                          "To thine own self be true.......
                          Thou canst not then be false to any man."

                          Comment


                            #15
                            The Saltire of St. Patrick is an English symbol of supremacy over Ireland and not regarded as anything great by the Unionist in Northern Ireland, nor by the population of Eire, if I read the history right. The question was more about the former and present Colonies and the Union Jack in their flags. If the Union Jack is no longer there, what will they do???

                            Ethnic differences may seam great in the contexts of old languishes and their revival, but there is not much doubt that English will prevail as the major languish of Britain and most of the former colonies. Old languishes being revived or not.

                            Comment

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