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Malaysia Airlines MH17

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    #16
    Many airlines crossed that same airspace hours before just as they had for years. The passengers & crew of Malaysia Airlines were the unfortunate ones who's luck ran out in a fast changing war zone.

    We just booked tickets that may take us over North Korea. Do I think anything will happen... probably not. I would feel better if I had control over the route but I won't let it keep me at home. There are no guarantees in life and we all enter and leave this world at some point. I really would like to visit at least 100 countries in my life. I'm only at 40+ and would hate to leave a task unfinished.

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      #17
      There has been so much bad press aimed at the people that live near to the crash site, they have been accused of looting the site etc. I personally do not believe the stories. I think it is people from outside the local area that have been the problem. I imagine that all the people from that village are truly shocked and mortified by what happened.

      I found an article in news.com.au that tells the horrific story of one local woman. She talks about 'body No 26', the body of a woman that fell through her roof. She only knows the passenger by that number, but she tells of how she desperately would like to know more about the person. I cannot even imagine what that lady must be going through, the pain she must be feeling for someone she never knew - someone she should never even have set eyes on, if it were not for this terrible act. The way the whole situation was handled after the event, i doubt very much that the lady will ever find the true name of the passenger that came through her roof, but i hope for her sake that she can. Maybe it would help her in some way, being able to put a name and face to the person that is obviously going to remain in this ladies mind for the rest of her life.

      This is just one lady from the village, but there are so many others in the area that must be affected in very similar ways. So hard to think how it must be for all of those affected on the ground. The lady also explains how the local people, including local coal miners, did the best they could to comb the area to try and find all the people that lost their lives in the incident. Another local lady that was affected is already asking for a memorial to be for the people that lost their lives.

      I read the account here - News.com.au...Inside Ukraine's Village....... A horrible story, it's going to take these people a very long time to get over this, if they ever do.
      Your charts, your radar, your eyes and ears - if all 4 agree, you may proceed with caution.

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        #18
        I focus on those in the aircraft and their families as the victims. I too easily forget that those on the ground can also be affected. Aircraft parts and bodies raining down can be very traumatizing. Then to have foreigners and media staring at you and reporting that you are a looter... oh, and you happen to live in a war zone.

        Comment


        • Steve.B
          Steve.B commented
          Editing a comment
          It's only natural to think of the people on the flight first, especially when in your position, your wife knowing some of them. Must make the whole tragedy even more personal for you. I only got to thinking of the people on the ground when i thought back to Lockerbie tragedy, how it so badly affected the people of that village.

        #19
        The link you gave, Steve, was very harrowing, and certainly the horrific experiences of the local people will always remain part of their lives. As for those related to or who knew any of the victims, their torment is unimaginable. I was talking to a friend about it all yesterday. She knows that I belong to CVF and I told her about Dane's wife. I said "I have never met Dane, our only communication is through the forum, but he said his wife is crying because she had worked with someone who was on that plane, and now I am sad because she cries." It is like ripples in a pond, isn't it?
        Ivy

        "To thine own self be true.......
        Thou canst not then be false to any man."

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          #20
          There is a HUMAN side to this disaster which I find very disturbing.

          These pictures posted on VG (Norwegian paper) shows this human side.

          http://www.vg.no/bildespesial/11982
          With best regards from Jan-Olav Storli

          Administrator and Owner of CaptainsVoyage.
          Main page: http://www.captainsvoyage.com

          Surround yourself with positive, ethical people who are committed to excellence.

          Comment


            #21
            Originally posted by pakarang View Post
            There is a HUMAN side to this disaster which I find very disturbing.

            These pictures posted on VG (Norwegian paper) shows this human side.

            http://www.vg.no/bildespesial/11982
            Yes, our last few posts have concentrated on the human side of this tragedy. The more photos i see, the more horror i feel. I get two images in my mind, one of the plane full of passengers, happily cruising along, then i see the images of carnage on the ground. It is SO HARD to connect those two images.

            Will this world ever learn that war is not the answer? I don't think so.
            Your charts, your radar, your eyes and ears - if all 4 agree, you may proceed with caution.

            Comment


              #22
              I have slowly found/learned some new information the situation. Nothing terribly specific to the MH17 shoot down but indicative of the situation.

              There is no unified regulating agency responsible for aircraft routing or safety. The ICAO sorta is but relies on each country and authority regarding their territory. The European Aviation Safety Agency while their name sounds good they do not have the authority to close airspace. The US Federal Aviation Administration does have the authority but only over US carriers. The decision to fly over a certain area is largely left up to the airline. Some airlines are well connected with governmental intelligence agencies to help determine what is safe while others are much more in the dark.

              Relying on each government to determine or assure that their airspace is safe normally works well enough but the civil war and Russian incursion in Ukraine shows how things are not so simple. The airspace is controlled by Ukraine Air Navigation Service (UKSATSE). They are very reliant on overflight fees for their funding. If they closed the airspace they basically put themselves out of business so there is a definite conflict of interest and safety. Then throw in that that entire region is quickly becoming a hazardous fly zone. How do carriers relying on those routes survive? People do love their cheap flights from Europe to Asia and India.

              On a slightly side note I did notice (Yes, with my own GPS. Seat back displays are wildly inaccurate and update infrequently.) that my recent flight to Shanghai from Detroit deviated a good bit from the Great Circle route. I assume Delta, being a US carrier, was avoiding North Korea by a healthy margin.

              ---
              On a slightly different note there has been a push in the US for airliners to carry defensive measures against man transportable anti aircraft missiles (MANPAD's). I'm believing more and more that it is mostly political with defence manufacturers and their lobbyists responsible for the push. While MANPAD's have been used in the past there have been none recently and when they were used it was in active war zones where the area around the airport was not secure. I believe the real threat are higher level missile systems, most Russian Buk are the real threat which are designed to be effective without central or advanced control or intelligence. Basically they are designed to shoot down any aircraft without verifying if it is friend or foe, military or civilian and they are designed to be operated with minimal training.

              Even without a dedicated friend or foe transmitter the targeting radar of a missile system can see the frequency reflected off of the aircraft's compressor blades. A fighters low bypass engine presents a very different signature than the high bypass engine of a airliner or turboprop. Basically these days it is more and more difficult to shoot down a civilian aircraft accidentally if you are a responsible and properly trained operator.

              Comment


                #23
                Good observations. The fact is that the regulatory system in use is tailored to a world where there are no wars, or malicious intent by anyone.
                Add to that the economic consideration for airlines if they have to fly long distances to avoid ANY area where there is conflict, although largely limited to the ground and low level air space.
                On the Europe to South and S.E.Asia that mean flying the northern route over Russia and Central Asia, or a far south route, over the Med. and the Arabian Peninsula, avoiding Israel, Syria and Yemen, which is the opposite of a Great Circle.

                Comment


                • ombugge
                  ombugge commented
                  Editing a comment
                  SAS actually flew the Norther route from Singapore, via Bangkok to Copenhagen as early as 1968, but with a refueling stop in Tashkent. This is the closest to a Great Circle route there is and with modern long range aircrafts there are no need for refueling. (I believe Finair is flying this route?)
                  Last edited by ombugge; September 29th, 2014, 06:44.

                #24
                From a paper:

                With best regards from Jan-Olav Storli

                Administrator and Owner of CaptainsVoyage.
                Main page: http://www.captainsvoyage.com

                Surround yourself with positive, ethical people who are committed to excellence.

                Comment


                  #25
                  It has been one year but this video that has been shown widely these days should not leave much doubt as to who was responsible for the shooting down of MH 017: http://www.vgtv.no/#!/video/115178/e...stedet-frigitt

                  Comment


                    #26
                    Did you all see this documentary which was done by RT and uploaded in July (past month)? MH17: 'No one deserves to die that way' (RT Documentary)

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4CtpLFc8LM

                    I'm going to sit down and watch it now.
                    With best regards from Jan-Olav Storli

                    Administrator and Owner of CaptainsVoyage.
                    Main page: http://www.captainsvoyage.com

                    Surround yourself with positive, ethical people who are committed to excellence.

                    Comment


                      #27
                      Watching that documentary from previous post and another one ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoI...st=WL&index=17 ) it appears as if that missile fired from the ground can't be correct, as there was nobody reporting seeing the vapor trails from ground-to-air-missiles.

                      To me it seems like this was an air-to-air attack.

                      Shocking to also see the former PM of Malaysia state that nobody was sent from Malaysia to investigate the disaster, and that Malaysia didn't even ask for the black boxes or asked to have any piece of the wreckage at any time.
                      With best regards from Jan-Olav Storli

                      Administrator and Owner of CaptainsVoyage.
                      Main page: http://www.captainsvoyage.com

                      Surround yourself with positive, ethical people who are committed to excellence.

                      Comment


                      • ombugge
                        ombugge commented
                        Editing a comment
                        That is what Russia has said all the time, but the rest of the world think differently.

                        PS> VG.no has their own opinion of how high the plane was flying, impressive:
                        Flyet, en Boeing 777 på vei fra Amsterdam til Kuala Lumpur med 298 mennesker om bord, befant seg i om lag 40.000 meters høyde da det ble truffet av en rakett og styrtet 17. juli 2014.

                      #28
                      Two truly sad "anniversaries" today:

                      The end of TWA flight 800 on July 17th 1996

                      The end of Malaysian MH17 on July 17th 2014

                      May the people never be forgotten.
                      With best regards from Jan-Olav Storli

                      Administrator and Owner of CaptainsVoyage.
                      Main page: http://www.captainsvoyage.com

                      Surround yourself with positive, ethical people who are committed to excellence.

                      Comment

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